The following are transcripts of two confrontations that took place in an evangelical church on one Sunday morning. The real tragedy of this event, is that the pastor of the church involved, represents many pastors who are simply naïve concerning the subversive nature behind the various so-called Christian movements and educational institutions of today.
Note that this husband-and-wife team were recent graduates from the Charis Bible College under Andrew Womack Ministries, a worldwide, for-profit training organization.
The transcriptions are altered for identification purposes.
This confrontation took place as a Sunday school teacher sat in his class a few moments before it was about to begin, when one of the two newly self-appointed education pastors walked in and began setting up teaching materials without saying a word:
John
Are you gonna co-opt my class again today?
Richard
What’s that?
John
Are you gonna co-opt my class again today?
Richard
No. I’m gonna teach your class. Did you talk to the pastor?
John
Yes I did.
Richard
And what did he tell you?
John
He said we were gonna talk about this after church today.
Richard
Ok.
John
But nobody has told me I’m fired except for you, so.
Richard
Well, I’m gonna be teaching you class from now on. If you wanna call it ‘fired’ that’s up to you. But you …
John
How would you characterize it?
Richard
I’m asking you to step down.
John
I have no intention of stepping down because I don’t know what it is you are doing. I mean, who said you could do this?
Richard
The authority that the pastor gave me says I can do this.
John
Yeah?
Richard
I told him that I was relieving you of your class last Sunday, and he was in agreement with me.
John
He called me to a meeting and asked me what happened, and I said “He fired me,” and he said, “Who told him he had the authority to fire you?”
Richard
Well, I guess we need to all sit down and talk about it. But, I’m gonna be teaching your class today. If something different turns out at the meeting…
John
This is my class, just as you said, and …
Richard
It’s not your class. I didn’t say it was your class.
John
Yeah, you just said you’re gonna be teaching my class.
Richard
I said I’m gonna be teaching this class.
John
This. The Middle School class?
Richard
Yes.
John
It’s my class. And it’s not a matter of; I’m not in here as a matter of trying to hold up some prideful thing….
Richard
Well then what are you in here for?
John
I’m in here to do the same thing I’ve done every Sunday for the last year.
Richard
You’ve done nothing but fight against me with everything I’ve, - we’ve brought to the table.
John
Everything that you’ve done.
Richard
Well, everything that …
John
What have I done? What have I done? Tell me. I’m teaching my class. You keep calling me to these meetings. You’ve come to all these conclusions. You’ve done this. What have I done?
Richard
I just wanna teach the kids the right way…
John
I know what I’m teaching them, and the pastor put me in here for that purpose. Have you told the pastor the stuff that you’re teaching the kids.
Richard
He’s got a copy of everything we’ve talked about.
John
Really?
Richard
I give him a report every week.
John
So you’ve told him we’re gods and he knows that you believe that?
Richard
I have God within me. God’s given me the power…
John
Besides the…
Richard
If you wanna get stuck on one term that’s fine …
John
I’m not stuck on one term; I’m stuck on a lot of stuff.
Richard
Well, that’s, that’s between you and God.
John
No it isn’t, it’s between the pastor and me and you.
Richard
Why are you so against what I’m teaching?
John
Because it’s ludicrous.
Richard
Well, then you have a problem with…
John
It’s blasphemy.
Richard
It’s not blasphemy.
John
Really? “I am a god.” That’s not blasphemy?
Richard
I never said.
John
You never what?
Richard
I don’t call myself…
John
You said verbatim “We are gods.” Now defend that? You can’t. I don’t give a crap what excuses you can wrap around that. That’s blasphemy.
Richard
…
John
What?
Richard
I have the power and the authority of Jesus Christ in me. Jesus Christ has given me the authority to do all things that He has done.
John
Ahuh.
Richard
I don’t call myself a god…
John
You did.
Richard
I didn’t.
John
Word for word.
Richard
You asked me about…
John
Word for word. “We are gods.” Those are the exact words you used.
Richard
You don’t have to yell, we can talk.
John
Because you’re just blatantly ignoring the truth. And you just lied by saying “I never said those words”. That’s an absolute lie. You know it. You know it.
Richard
…
John
Can you admit that you just lied?
Richard
The bible says…
John
Let’s stay on one subject. Can you admit that you just lied to me?
Richard
I’m not lying to you.
John
You just told me that you never said that.
Richard
Why are you so…?
John
Why can’t you answer the question? Did you never say that?
Richard
I don’t go around calling myself a god.
John
Did you never say that?
Richard
I don’t call myself a god.
John
Did you never say that?
Richard
I said that in God’s eyes, I’m a …
John
Word for word. Did you not say “We are gods”?
Richard
I was in replying to a question that you…
John
Did you or did you not say that?
Richard
You have to take the whole thing - It’s like taking one verse out of context.
John
Really?
Richard
Yes. Like the…
John
Then explain the statement exactly. First you just told me that you never said those words, and now you finally admit it and now you’re gonna say it’s gotta be in a certain context. Did you say those words or not?
Richard
Why do you have to – why are you arguing with me?
John
Why can’t you answer a simple question?
Richard
I’m an heir of god, called the son of god because of God’s word. If I’m a son of god and an heir of God, I guess if you wanna look at it, I’m a god. And…
John
Ok. Thank you for finally answering the twelfth question.
Richard
But the way you’re taking it, I’m not elevating myself as the god or a god.
John
Yeah.
Richard
I am a son of God. Just like you’re a son of God. Everyone who is born again is a son of god. So we are equally god. The Holy Spirit, one-third of you is the Holy Spirit.
*******
John walks out and sits down in the sanctuary with the congregation who all looks at him, wonders why he is not teaching his class.
*******
This is the meeting that later took place with the Pastor, the Associate Pastor, John, Richard and his wife:
Pastor
Today we had an issue. Also, last Sunday John didn’t teach his class.
Richard
As Jesus talked about in the bible, I’m teaching these kids better – and to help them receive Him in their heart. Not just speaking words that He’s going to return. It gives them that assurance we’ve got a way that we can go, with Jesus Christ in heaven and the father; and that we’re missing it somewhere. And in truth, if we can teach them all these different things that are mandatory, I believe that we can give them some of the foundational stuff. Like John was in the meeting last Sunday where we talked about foundations. Like ‘Jesus is God’. Number one, you have to be a born again Christian. We’re going to be teaching him …
Pastor
Ok. Sunday Morning, 10 o’clock.
Richard
Yes.
Pastor
Sunday morning is only four hours. We just need to focus, not on a denominational community issue or bible issue. Only our program. So when you leave the service, just pray together. Pray for the classes and pray for biblical teaching. You can help. So, you know, I’m not saying to leave, but just have a service and pray for the Sunday school classes. It’s probably a difference in our denominations. You have a different denomination than our church, and so we have to follow our doctrine. But it’s supposed to be smooth. Ok? So, we certainly want to just have a service for the…
Richard’s Wife
The problem isn’t the doctrines. I think the problem is, last week we said to John, well Richard said to John “Well, this week don’t teach, just talk to the pastor and we’ll go back to it next Sunday.” And there was a fight. And that was bad.
Pastor
Yeah. So we have to understand each other. And our focus has to be on teaching God’s word, so…
Richard’s Wife
Right now it’d be best if John didn’t teach the class.
Pastor
Yeah?
Richard’s Wife
Right now. It’d be best if he didn’t.
John
And why is that?
Richard’s Wife
Because you have a spirit of rebellion and I don’t think you should be teaching anyone.
John
That’s it?
Richard’s Wife
That’s it.
John
Ok. Are they staying here to teach? Because this doctrinal thing is way bigger than everybody’s allowed it to become, so I’m going to take my family and go.
Richard’s Wife
The doctrine is not the problem.
John
It is my problem.
Richard’s Wife
Well then you’ve just gotta get around all that. We need to get around that problem.
John
Alright. Let me just lay out my case. And I’ll lay it out. If we can just dispense with all this frivolous stuff. Ok?
When you came to this church, you knew full well, unless you’re a naive man, that you’re doctrines did not align with this church. And despite having three plus months to make an express declaration of that to someone, I don’t know that that has happened.
You called me to a meeting with all the Sunday school teachers in here, where you decided that you were gonna take over all of the children and you were gonna have us begin teaching Word Faith doctrine from this list of people. All of these people, I’m not familiar with all of them, I’m familiar with five out of these seven. These are Word Faith doctrine people.
Richard’s Wife
They believe in the word.
John
Ok. Please don’t interrupt and let me finish what I’m thinking. I know who these people are, but most people don’t. Ok. And it’s interesting to me that the biggest names in the Word Faith movement, like Creflo Dollar, Morris Curillo, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagan, Benny Hinn; those people are not on this list. And I just assume…
Richard’s Wife
Those people will be on the list next month.
John
I just assume that you didn’t wanna put them on there because even a layman who doesn’t understand anything about this movement, has red flags up in front of their face when you put Benny Hinn in front of them.
And at that meeting I dissented from your program. You called me to the meeting, I dissented. Then you called me to another meeting in private when…
Richard
You said you wanted to meet with me…
John
You gonna let me finish?
Richard
Well you called me…
John
You asked me if I had a problem and I said “Maybe we should meet on this.” And then you called me…
Richard’s Wife
Ok, this…
John
Am I gonna get to finish?
Richard’s Wife
No. No. There’s no point of arguing.
John
I think it’s important. I’m not arguing, I’m giving my case. You called me on the phone and said “Let’s meet.” I met you. We had the discussion, and in that meeting you confirmed to me all the things that I was concerned about, when you said “We have power in our words”, which is a Word Faith line that teaches people that when the Holy Spirit comes on them, that is a manipulatable power to their ends.
Then you further confirmed to me my concerns when you said that Jesus was rich. It’s another line given to these people to make them believe that the Lord intends to make Word Faith believers wealthy. And then you said “We are gods.” I don’t care about all these little things about what you want to say, those are the exact words you used. You just sat there and lied in front of my daughter about that particular issue. Ok.
I further dissented from you in this meeting. And the bible says that you have a certain way of dealing with someone when you have a problem in the church. And you did not follow that. You had all that Friday night. You had all Saturday, you had Sunday morning to contact either one of the pastors, to contact anyone of the elders or anyone of the deacons. But you didn’t do that. You waited till the last minute, came to my class and started an argument with me while all of the children were standing outside the door. They later moved down to the couches.
This argument that you started with me I can see as nothing less than an attempt to intimidate me and humiliate me. And in this argument you said “We have decided that you should focus more on your family.” I assume you meant both of you.
Richard
No. You said …
John
That is exactly what you said. Stop interrupting me. If you have a problem, write it down and say it later, ok? Then you said God himself told you to take over my class. Then you said Pastor gave you the authority to take over my class. And then you said you personally think that I am unfit to teach my class.
Now, I, knowing this movement, and all of these other people, the more prominent names on here, you have affirmed to me on two occasions now that you believe that they are godly men.
I have done nothing in this whole thing. I have just been going to class, teaching my class, and all of a sudden I’ve got this person coming in and putting me out of the way. I see none of this stuff as anything other than an attempt to be deceitful, whether you’ve done it intentionally or subconsciously. You have omitted certain facts and you have avoided certain truths.
And I’m down to this point where I need to decide, if you’re trying to, because you’ve co-opted all of the children here, I’m not only concerned about my kids, I’m concerned about the kids in this church and I’m concerned about, I’m concerned about everybody in this church.
And quite frankly, I haven’t said anything to anybody. I have been called to all these meetings. I’ve been called to meetings with him. I haven’t done anything. And this is what I’m gonna do. If you teach in this church for five more minutes, I’m gonna take my family, and I’m not really sure if you care…
Richard’s Wife
You have been water baptized…
John
I am not done.
Richard’s Wife
What do you know? You’ve been water baptized for two months.
John
Let’s stay on the subject.
Richard’s Wife
Let’s speak about the truth…
John
Let’s stay on the subject, ok? I am going to leave, I am going to leave this church. And just as I’ve done, anybody who comes to me to ask what’s going on, I’m going to tell them all of these things.
And just like I told you in the first meeting, if you teach people this doctrine, like this one right here, where you took the Lord’s Prayer. And this is the culmination of all three…
Richard’s Wife
It’s for kids.
John
It’s the culmination…This is the culmination of all three of those goofy doctrines that add up to a sincere blasphemy. “Our father, hallowed be thy name”. Where is “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done”? And then you’ve got this line down here, “Amen, so be it as I’ve declared”.
God is not this cosmic piggy bank or vending machine where, if you do the right formula you get all this stuff where you can create things and have all this ability and power. It is absolutely against the bible, and you have every intention of teaching this garbage to the children.
So that’s my decision. I’m waiting on The pastor. If he’s gonna allow you to teach, I’m going and I wanna know what the answer is.
Richard’s Wife
Ok.
Assistant Associate Pastor
I haven’t been to all these meetings, but, though some of the people he talked about, I don’t completely abide by their doctrine. Benny Hinn I think, I’ve heard of the, Benny Hinn does no favors to Christianity. That’s my opinion.
Some of the other people, Creflo Dollar, I think he’s fairly credible. But, I’m not that familiar with the Faith doctrine movement. I like to see my, the bible needs to be taught biblically as it comes out of the bible. Teaching all of this stuff, I don’t know, I haven’t seen all this stuff so…
Pastor
On Sunday morning we will have to…
Richard’s Wife
Ok. We quit.
At this point Richard’s wife took hold of her husband’s hand and led him out of the room. While the conversation was continued by both pastors and John, Richard’s wife gathered all of the children into one of the classrooms and began crying, telling them that John had kicked them out of the church, that he was an evil man and that she and Richard would protect the children from John.
From this point on, most of the church was deeply upset, and most of the children were deeply upset with John. Two years later there are still children in the church who refuse to speak to him.
Creeping Menace
